tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213316015209503694.post683564229860859239..comments2024-01-22T01:52:37.473-06:00Comments on RENEGADE TRADS: If It's True, He's Won Me Over!!A Sinnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213316015209503694.post-79275916869966890532013-03-15T20:56:47.229-05:002013-03-15T20:56:47.229-05:00Your explanation of why we Tridentines should not ...Your explanation of why we Tridentines should not (and cannot) have a sui juris church is very convincing. However, I am convinced that we need to have a semi-autonomous judicial model at the ready should Pope Francis or a successor abrogate <i>SP</i>.<br /><br />The ordinariate model also poses problems. The Anglican Ordinariate lacks a major archbishop to oversee the entire ordinariate. I find this to be a critical weakness, as the current model of AO bishops and monsignori lends itself to schism. <br /><br />Instead, +Burke, +Pell, or +Ranjith (inter alia) would be the Major Archbishop, appointed by His Holiness. He would represent traditional Roman Catholicism in a consistory. The major archbishop would also hold together the various bishops of the ordinariate. In other words, this plan will re-create a licit SSPX but without the Lefebvrist anti-semitic and overall hater nasty aftertaste.<br /><br />There are also problems with my model. Let's say that the Tridentine synod wishes to update MR 1962. The Pope, as the supreme legislator of the Roman Rite, must promulgate the missal. What if a pope actively blocks the publication of an updated missal? This could get ugly quickly.<br /><br />----<br /><br />There will come a time when a pope will try to abrogate <i>SP</i>. He may do so out of very good intentions, such as to remove and refashion old legislation. At that point trads and allied princes of the Church need to have an alternate model of governance ready to fill the void. <i>SP</i> is not a permanent solution, and no trad should convince himself or herself otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Jordannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213316015209503694.post-22333462478279774152013-03-15T17:54:05.715-05:002013-03-15T17:54:05.715-05:00You know I'd support #1, Jordan.
I doubt we&...You know I'd support #1, Jordan. <br /><br />I doubt we'll see a sui juris church for trads though. That makes little sense to me. An ordinariate makes more sense. <br /><br />The extraordinary form is the Roman Rite, after all. Yes, there can be multiple sui juris churches of a given rite (just look at all the various "Greek-Catholic" jurisdictions which are sui juris of the Byzantine rite) and even with each having its own "recension" or tradition within that family of Rites (Slavic versus Greek for instance)...but the Traditional Roman Rite is so linked to Rome itself and the Pope that I don't see it happening. <br /><br />Sui juris churches are not the way they seem to handle things in the West. The way they seem to handle them is with an Ordinariate that is like a sui juris church, but without the title and with a little more direct oversight by the Vatican.<br /><br />They might exempt from local bishops and give us our own Ordinary (something I might register for; though, would you really want to have something like stricter fasting rules be obligatory on you rather than optional?) but I doubt the Vatican would "let go" to the degree of a sui juris church.<br /><br />I know there are, for example three Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch and All the East (for the Melkites, Maronites, and Syriacs)...but I really don't see there being a "Patriarch of Rome and all the West for the Traditionalists" alongside the Pope. But if the head of the sui juris church was anywhere other than Rome, that would ring contrived. I suppose they could just give him the title of "exarch" or something, but still.A Sinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05083094677310915678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213316015209503694.post-84915761198865923132013-03-15T17:38:34.789-05:002013-03-15T17:38:34.789-05:00 Initially, you say, you were skeptical about the ... Initially, you say, you were skeptical about the new and duly appointed Vicar of Christ? Why, I ask? Was it because the character and person of this new and duly appointed Vicar of Christ didn't meet your and the Holy Spirit's judgmental standards with respect to the qualities of character and personhood required of a Vicar of Christ qua Vicar of Christ? Or were you skeptical merely because you felt that he had not yet proven to your satisfaction to possess those qualities that you and the Holy Spirit require of a Vicar of Christ qua Vicar of Christ? Oh do say. I so enjoy reading young people hold forth on matters of faith and faithfulness, docility and obedience to Christ and his Church. In my day, a dark, authoritarian and oppressive day, we were not allowed to presume to be won over. It was expected that being "won over" was our default position. I do hope that the new, duly appointed Vicar of Christ showed kindness to Cardinal Law. For such expressions of kindness in Christ are not incompatible with positions of rigorous condemnation of failure to protect the vulnerable from sexual predators. And besides, its a style thing. <br />BridgetAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213316015209503694.post-3126648388565932842013-03-15T17:25:00.471-05:002013-03-15T17:25:00.471-05:00+1 Pope Francis all the way. I could think of eve...+1 Pope Francis all the way. I could think of even better places to send Bernie Law (like a federal supermax prison), but extradition isn't possible sadly.<br /><br />Pope Francis's reign will be significant, I am convinced. It'll be super-low-church liturgically. The legislation, though, will be radical. Two predictions:<br /><br />1) Pope Francis will permit married men to be ordained to the transitional diaconate and the priesthood. The incidence of broken celibacy vows is very high in Central and South America. Pope Francis will merely legalize what has been tacit in his part of the world for centuries.<br /><br />2) Pope Francis will not only not annul <i>Summorum pontificum</i> and <i>Universae ecclesiae</i>, but liberate Tridentines with a sui juris church. Pope Francis strikes me as a pragmatic man who would be receptive to juridical autonomy for traditionalists. Jordannoreply@blogger.com